Football

FootballHaving gotten its feet wet with baseball and cricket, football represented the sink-or-swim moment for Apples & Oranges. We’re going from a pair of sports that distribute opportunity more or less evenly to one where a single player has the ball on every possession, and three-quarters of the team never get to touch it.

Modern NFL players play offense or defense, not both. Or they might come in seven or eight times a game to kick the ball. Linemen spend all their time simply trying to neutralize one player on the other team. Defensive players earn vast sums of money if they manage to make 20 big plays in 16 games. Football is the sport that, quarterbacks aside, demands from its stars the most sacrifice to the team ethos. Huge rosters mean players are constantly shuttling in and out, further limiting a single player’s impact.

The end result is that there is huge variance from position to position among football players. Quarterbacks have the potential to be immensely valuable. Running backs are more productive than wide receivers, who in turn out-gain tight ends. Defensive backs make some impact, especially if they return kicks, too, but “in the trenches” —  the linebackers and linemen on both sides of the ball — the numbers are tiny.

The low numbers for linemen and defensive players don’t mean that I think they aren’t as “good” as the skill-position guys. It’s just that a player’s opportunity to impact the game is directly related to how often he gets the ball. It takes tremendous talent, physicality and endurance to play on the line in the NFL, but each one of those guys is matched up with an opponent who is also tremendously talented and physical. The net result of all that blocking, pulling, stunting and tackling is a zero-sum game where only the most impactful players move the needle even a little bit.

As I’ve said before, if I’m going to compare quarterbacks to shortstops, I have to be clear-eyed about the value of every position. I can’t give linemen and linebackers extra credit because what they do is so physically grueling.

As for the actual stats: Offense 1 is yardage; passing yards count half, everything else — rushing receiving, returns, losses on sacks — counts full. Linemen and tight ends get credit for team rushing, and the interior linemen also get credit for preventing sacks. Offense 2 is scoring: passing and receiving touchdowns are 3 points; every other TD, field goals, PATs and safeties count full. Offensive linemen, but not tight ends, get a bonus for team rushing touchdowns.

Defense 1 is turnovers. Fumbles — fumbling, recovering and forcing — count as half a turnover, except for the years where we don’t have forced-fumble statistics, in which case recovering the a fumble for the defense counts as a full turnover. Interceptions, punts and missed field goals all count as a turnover. Because these will be the only “defensive” stats for most modern offensive players, their final defensive number will end up being a slight negative. Defensive players also get credit for the punts forced by their team.

Defense 2 is yards allowed. Linebackers get credit for the total yardage their teams allow, defensive linemen are rated on rushing yards and defensive backs on passing yards. Sack yardage counts here, but it gets tricky. We have individual sack yardage for some years, individual sacks since 1981 (and unofficial sacks for some players before that), and team sack yardage since the 1940s. Depending on the year, we may be able to credit a player with his individual impact on that of front, or we may have to give him a piece of the team total. Punting yards count here, too, in full — a punter will generally have a negative Defense 1 number and a positive Defense 2 number, averaging out to a net positive.

Quarterbacks Games Total Per 160 Sqr Root Sum Off Def
Sammy Baugh 171 28.67 26.83 5.35 32.18 36.03 17.61
Peyton Manning 293 44.37 24.23 6.66 30.89 55.42 -6.96
Sid Luckman 133 19.86 23.89 4.46 28.35 32.76 15.02
Dan Marino 260 35.09 21.59 5.92 27.52 51.07 -7.89
Steve Young 189 26.12 22.11 5.11 27.22 49.27 -5.05
Brett Favre 326 40.98 20.11 6.40 26.51 49.15 -8.93
Otto Graham 138 18.71 21.69 4.33 26.02 46.55 -3.17
Joe Montana 215 26.57 19.77 5.15 24.93 45.69 -6.15
John Elway 256 30.72 19.20 5.54 24.74 46.10 -7.70
Randall Cunningham 173 21.24 19.64 4.61 24.25 45.66 -6.37
Warren Moon 218 25.88 18.99 5.09 24.08 47.20 -9.21
Fran Tarkenton 257 28.13 17.51 5.30 22.82 42.25 -7.23
Dan Fouts 188 21.32 18.14 4.62 22.76 46.05 -9.75
Jim Kelly 177 19.70 17.81 4.44 22.25 44.47 -8.85
Roger Staubach 149 16.17 17.36 4.02 21.38 40.66 -5.93
Terry Bradshaw 187 19.51 16.69 4.42 21.11 42.39 -9.00
Johnny Unitas 220 21.61 15.72 4.65 20.37 39.82 -8.38
Ken Anderson 198 19.50 15.76 4.42 20.17 37.41 -5.89
Troy Aikman 181 18.01 15.92 4.24 20.16 38.51 -6.68
Bobby Layne 179 16.59 14.83 4.07 18.90 39.50 -9.84
YA Tittle 206 18.50 14.23 4.30 18.53 36.46 -8.00
Joe Namath 146 13.06 14.32 3.61 17.94 38.62 -9.98
Sonny Jurgensen 218 17.24 12.65 4.15 16.81 31.13 -5.82
Bob Griese 173 14.00 12.95 3.74 16.69 32.98 -7.09
Len Dawson 217 15.28 11.27 3.91 15.18 28.94 -6.41
Bart Starr 208 13.35 10.27 3.65 13.92 25.40 -4.86

Baugh and Luckman played defense and punted, too, which drives their final numbers up. I’m sure most fans would discount anyone who played before 1950 (or 1960, or 1970 …). Of the modern guys, Manning is tops, but Tom Brady is knocking on the door (30.22 after the 2018 Super Bowl), and Drew Brees, Matt Ryan and Aaron Rodgers will all likely finish in the top 10. Modern football makes QBs more valuable than ever.

Brett Favre was tied with Marino after his last year in Green Bay. His Jets/Vikings dalliances cost him two spots.

Griese, Dawson and Starr are of a type extinct in the NFL. We’d call them “game managers” now (dismissively), but they were really more like offensive coordinators on the field. Bob Griese once won a playoff game in which he threw six passes.

Running Backs Games Total Per 160 Sqr Root Sum Off Def
Jim Brown 122 20.46 26.83 4.52 31.36 54.92 -1.26
Steve Van Buren 87 14.89 27.38 3.86 31.24 49.52 5.24
Gale Sayers 68 11.17 26.28 3.34 29.62 53.70 -1.14
LaDainian Tomlinson 180 26.09 23.19 5.11 28.30 46.82 -0.43
Barry Sanders 159 22.44 22.58 4.74 27.32 45.82 -0.66
Emmitt Smith 243 32.14 21.16 5.67 26.83 42.99 -0.67
Walter Payton 199 26.60 21.39 5.16 26.54 44.01 -1.24
Marshall Faulk 188 24.63 20.96 4.96 25.92 42.34 -0.41
OJ Simpson 136 17.06 20.07 4.13 24.20 41.36 -1.23
Curtis Martin 178 21.73 19.53 4.66 24.19 39.40 -0.34
Eric Dickerson 153 18.77 19.63 4.34 23.63 40.72 -1.47
Edgerrin James 161 19.06 18.94 4.37 23.31 38.89 -0.77
Franco Harris 192 21.31 17.76 4.62 22.37 36.85 -1.33
Marcus Allen 238 25.61 17.22 5.06 22.28 35.24 -0.80
Lenny Moore 147 16.28 17.72 4.03 21.75 36.11 -0.67
Earl Campbell 122 13.75 18.03 3.71 21.75 37.05 -0.98
Tony Dorsett 190 20.40 17.18 4.52 21.69 35.77 -1.41
Thurman Thomas 203 21.46 16.91 4.63 21.55 34.64 -0.82
John Riggins 184 19.46 16.92 4.41 21.33 34.69 -0.85
Paul Hornung 109 11.83 17.37 3.44 20.80 39.68 -4.93
Jim Taylor 139 14.50 16.69 3.81 20.50 34.04 -0.67
Jerome Bettis 204 19.65 15.41 4.43 19.84 31.31 -0.49
Frank Gifford 141 13.20 14.98 3.63 18.61 30.30 -0.35
Larry Csonka 160 14.00 14.00 3.74 17.74 28.40 -0.41
Hugh McElhenny 145 12.45 13.74 3.53 17.27 28.30 -0.82
Ollie Matson 180 14.76 13.12 3.84 16.96 26.05 0.18
Marion Motley 115 9.42 13.11 3.07 16.18 24.24 1.97

Running backs are characterized by great early value, followed by a steep decline. That’s why Van Buren and Sayers did so well here; they got hurt before they got old.

Tomlinson was on pace to blow everyone away through Year 7 and then fell off a cliff. Dickerson and Campbell were similar, but done even sooner.

Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders and Walter Payton finished within a point of each other. I think most people would be surprised to see Payton behind Smith. I sure was. If you go by regular-season yardage, Payton is way ahead. But add in touchdowns, and postseason stats, and Smith inches out in front. He came along right when offensive coordinators realized it was probably a good idea to give the ball to your best back on the goal line whenever possible.

Wide Receivers Games Total Per 160 Sqr Root Sum Off Def
Don Hutson 121 19.89 25.81 4.46 30.27 45.82 6.79
Jerry Rice 331 28.96 14.00 5.38 19.38 28.21 -0.22
Elroy Hirsch 136 12.15 14.29 3.49 17.78 23.97 4.62
Terrell Owens 231 18.97 13.14 4.36 17.49 26.40 -0.13
Randy Moss 233 18.90 12.98 4.35 17.33 26.04 -0.08
Marvin Harrison 206 16.87 13.10 4.11 17.21 26.42 -0.21
Calvin Johnson 137 11.64 13.59 3.41 17.01 27.46 -0.27
Lance Alworth 150 12.41 13.24 3.52 16.76 26.58 -0.10
Tim Brown 267 19.96 11.96 4.47 16.43 24.20 -0.28
Charley Taylor 170 12.75 12.00 3.57 15.57 24.31 -0.31
Don Maynard 187 13.46 11.52 3.67 15.19 23.16 -0.12
Steve Largent 207 14.62 11.30 3.82 15.12 22.80 -0.20
Cris Carter 248 16.81 10.85 4.10 14.95 21.84 -0.15
Isaac Bruce 232 15.80 10.90 3.97 14.87 22.02 -0.23
Reggie Wayne 232 14.88 10.26 3.86 14.12 20.66 -0.13
Paul Warfield 174 11.63 10.69 3.41 14.10 21.49 -0.11
Henry Ellard 238 15.16 10.19 3.89 14.09 20.59 -0.21
James Lofton 245 14.87 9.71 3.86 13.57 19.56 -0.14
Raymond Berry 158 10.12 10.25 3.18 13.43 20.50 0.00
Lynn Swann 129 8.20 10.17 2.86 13.03 20.52 -0.19
Art Monk 239 13.67 9.15 3.70 12.85 18.43 -0.12
Fred Biletnikoff 209 11.91 9.12 3.45 12.57 18.29 -0.06
Dante Lavelli 132 7.90 9.58 2.81 12.39 19.23 -0.09
Cliff Branch 205 11.10 8.66 3.33 12.00 17.41 -0.09
Charlie Joiner 248 12.86 8.30 3.59 11.88 16.84 -0.26

The original formula split yards between the passer and the receiver, and gave receivers credit for receptions. It ended up being needlessly complicated, and I found I got much the same results if I just gave receivers full credit for their yards. It does mean that the sum of individual numbers will exceed the team total, if that matters.

There’s a batch of recently retired players in positions 4-7. As with QBs, the modern NFL is better for this position. But it’s not enough to catch the running backs. Receivers are about 60-70 percent as productive as backs.

Don Hutson was a two-way guy, so that helps him. But even without his defense, he’s the most productive receiver ever, relative to his peers.

Tight Ends Games Total Per 160 Sqr Root Sum Off Def
Tony Gonzalez 277 19.95 11.52 4.47 15.99 23.05 -0.01
Kellen Winslow 115 8.73 12.15 2.95 15.10 24.45 -0.17
Shannon Sharpe 222 14.81 10.67 3.85 14.52 21.43 -0.08
Dave Casper 157 9.82 10.01 3.13 13.14 20.07 -0.06
John Mackey 149 8.78 9.43 2.96 12.39 19.03 -0.17
Ozzie Newsome 208 11.55 8.88 3.40 12.28 17.79 -0.03
Mike Ditka 168 9.54 9.09 3.09 12.17 18.91 -0.02

Tight end isn’t a real deep field. Antonio Gates may play one more season, then he’ll be up there with these guys. Who else … Keith Jackson?

Offensive Line Games Total Per 160 Sqr Root Sum Off Def
Bulldog Turner 145 10.38 11.45 3.22 14.68 14.46 8.44
Mel Hein 174 9.85 9.06 3.14 12.20 10.26 8.39
Mike Webster 265 8.29 5.01 2.88 7.88 10.00 0.01
Gene Upshaw 241 7.54 5.01 2.75 7.75 9.94 0.06
Jim Langer 165 5.42 5.26 2.33 7.58 10.47 0.04
Larry Little 196 6.18 5.04 2.49 7.53 7.59 0.09
Frank Gatski 156 5.05 5.18 2.25 7.43 8.48 1.88
Mick Tingelhoff 240 7.08 4.72 2.66 7.38 9.32 0.12
Jim Ringo 190 5.78 4.87 2.40 7.27 9.63 0.11
Forrest Gregg 205 6.07 4.74 2.46 7.20 9.36 0.12
John Hannah 190 5.68 4.78 2.38 7.17 9.39 0.16
Jackie Slater 276 7.55 4.38 2.75 7.12 8.70 0.05
Bob St. Clair 120 3.84 5.12 1.96 7.08 10.06 0.18
Anthony Muñoz 193 5.56 4.61 2.36 6.97 9.12 0.10
Jim Otto 221 5.91 4.28 2.43 6.71 8.56 0.00
Dan Dierdorf 162 4.40 4.35 2.10 6.44 6.58 0.11
Joe DeLamielleure 188 4.95 4.21 2.22 6.44 8.30 0.12
Jim Parker 139 3.82 4.40 1.95 6.35 8.66 0.13
Billy Shaw 123 3.38 4.40 1.84 6.24 6.09 0.12
Lou Creekmur 122 3.34 4.38 1.83 6.21 8.69 0.07
Bob Brown 130 3.50 4.31 1.87 6.18 8.56 0.05
Roosevelt Brown 170 4.30 4.05 2.07 6.12 8.03 0.07
Russ Grimm 159 3.10 4.18 1.76 5.94 8.27 0.14
Dwight Stephenson 125 3.15 4.03 1.77 5.81 8.01 0.05
Mike Munchak 169 3.87 3.66 1.97 5.63 7.24 0.09

Two-way play matters a lot more here. It’s hard to have confidence in the rankings when the margins are so tight, but for what it’s worth, I thought Mike Webster and Gene Upshaw were the top two modern linemen before I started.

Linebackers Games Total Per 160 Sqr Root Sum Off Def
George Connor 88 4.57 8.31 2.14 10.45 8.88 7.75
Chuck Bednarik 171 6.28 5.88 2.51 8.38 3.96 7.78
Ray Lewis 250 8.04 5.15 2.84 7.98 0.91 9.38
Derrick Brooks 235 7.44 5.07 2.73 7.79 1.38 8.75
Jack Ham 181 5.98 5.29 2.45 7.73 0.59 9.99
Lawrence Taylor 199 6.45 5.19 2.54 7.73 0.41 9.97
Bobby Bell 175 5.74 5.25 2.40 7.64 1.77 8.72
Ted Hendricks 236 7.24 4.91 2.69 7.60 0.94 8.87
Brian Urlacher 189 6.02 5.10 2.45 7.55 0.95 9.24
Dave Robinson 164 5.30 5.17 2.30 7.47 1.02 9.32
Sam Huff 175 5.54 5.07 2.35 7.42 1.07 9.07
Ray Nitschke 205 6.24 4.87 2.50 7.37 0.81 8.93
Jack Lambert 162 5.16 5.10 2.27 7.37 0.38 9.81
Derrick Thomas 179 5.55 4.96 2.36 7.32 0.67 9.27
Joe Schmidt 158 4.98 5.04 2.23 7.27 0.89 9.07
Dick Butkus 119 3.93 5.28 1.98 7.27 1.01 9.56
Bill George 175 5.13 4.69 2.26 6.96 0.75 8.63
Nick Buoniconti 196 5.61 4.58 2.37 6.95 0.70 8.46
Junior Seau 278 7.30 4.20 2.70 6.90 0.31 8.10
Willie Lanier 156 4.63 4.75 2.15 6.90 1.06 8.44
Harry Carson 182 5.17 4.55 2.27 6.82 0.68 8.41
Mike Singletary 191 5.20 4.36 2.28 6.64 0.06 8.66
Andre Tippett 157 4.32 4.40 2.08 6.48 0.35 8.23
Karl Mecklenburg 194 5.01 4.13 2.24 6.37 0.44 7.82
Dave Wilcox 158 4.21 4.26 2.05 6.32 0.56 7.72
Tommy Nobis 133 3.22 3.87 1.79 5.67 0.72 7.04

Lawrence Taylor sixth and Derrick Thomas 14th shows how little sacks matter. Getting to the quarterback a dozen times a year is nice, but there’s a lot more to defensive play.

Defensive Line Games Total Per 160 Sqr Root Sum Off Def
Len Ford 133 4.82 5.80 2.20 7.99 4.17 7.72
Alan Page 237 6.33 4.27 2.52 6.79 0.49 8.07
Reggie White 247 6.46 4.18 2.54 6.73 0.31 8.06
Jack Youngblood 219 5.56 4.06 2.36 6.42 0.11 8.01
Bob Lilly 210 5.36 4.08 2.32 6.40 0.45 7.71
Carl Eller 244 5.91 3.88 2.43 6.31 0.19 7.56
Deacon Jones 193 4.91 4.07 2.22 6.29 0.18 7.96
Bruce Smith 300 6.84 3.65 2.62 6.26 0.15 7.14
LC Greenwood 188 4.76 4.05 2.18 6.23 0.05 8.06
Joe Greene 199 4.93 3.96 2.22 6.18 0.04 7.89
Randy White 230 5.24 3.65 2.29 5.93 0.03 7.25
Charles Haley 192 4.54 3.78 2.13 5.91 0.17 7.38
Merlin Olsen 218 4.96 3.64 2.23 5.87 0.12 7.17
Dan Hampton 169 4.06 3.84 2.01 5.86 0.05 7.65
Leo Nomellini 175 4.10 3.75 2.02 5.77 1.67 5.83
Ernie Stautner 168 3.92 3.73 1.98 5.71 0.13 7.34
Buck Buchanan 188 4.21 3.58 2.05 5.63 0.09 6.83
Elvin Bethea 218 4.71 3.46 2.17 5.63 0.19 7.01
Howie Long 191 4.25 3.56 2.06 5.62 0.11 7.01
Willie Davis 173 3.82 3.53 1.95 5.49 0.24 6.83
Henry Jordan 175 3.82 3.49 1.95 5.45 0.12 6.86
Doug Atkins 209 4.36 3.34 2.09 5.43 0.04 6.63
Lee Roy Selmon 125 2.86 3.66 1.69 5.35 0.19 7.13
Gino Marchetti 164 3.52 3.43 1.88 5.31 0.45 6.43
Art Donovan 141 2.53 2.87 1.59 4.46 0.05 5.68

OK, sacks matter a bit more here. As a group, defensive linemen rate the lowest … there’s just not a lot of opportunity for them. Including Art Donavan was a bit unfair, but I was genuinely curious how he’d do.

Defensive Backs Games Total Per 160 Sqr Root Sum Off Def
Deion Sanders 199 13.23 10.64 3.64 14.27 12.12 9.10
Rod Woodson 258 16.01 9.93 4.00 13.93 10.17 9.69
Lem Barney 141 9.41 10.68 3.07 13.75 8.88 12.48
Jack Christiansen 95 6.16 10.37 2.48 12.86 11.79 8.96
Emlen Tunnell 171 9.47 8.86 3.08 11.94 8.23 9.49
Herb Adderley 181 9.81 8.67 3.13 11.80 7.34 10.00
Mel Renfro 197 8.92 7.24 2.99 10.23 5.76 8.73
Willie Wood 176 7.64 6.95 2.76 9.71 3.76 10.13
Bobby Boyd 125 5.42 6.94 2.33 9.27 3.26 10.63
Cliff Harris 162 6.66 6.58 2.58 9.16 4.14 9.00
Paul Krause 242 9.14 6.04 3.02 9.07 2.06 10.02
Ken Houston 197 7.51 6.10 2.74 8.84 3.26 8.93
Dick Lane 157 6.21 6.33 2.49 8.82 3.16 9.50
Mike Haynes 185 7.07 6.11 2.66 8.77 3.28 8.95
Ronnie Lott 212 7.72 5.83 2.78 8.60 1.84 9.81
Mel Blount 220 7.90 5.75 2.81 8.56 2.57 8.92
Darrell Green 314 10.28 5.24 3.21 8.44 1.94 8.54
Kenny Easley 95 3.68 6.20 1.92 8.12 2.87 9.53
Dick Anderson 132 4.87 5.90 2.21 8.11 3.48 8.33
Larry Wilson 169 5.85 5.54 2.42 7.96 2.34 8.68
Willie Brown 222 6.86 4.94 2.62 7.56 1.47 8.42
Rodney Harrison 178 5.60 5.03 2.37 7.40 1.25 8.81
Jimmy Johnson 217 6.38 4.70 2.53 7.23 1.57 7.84
Steve Atwater 181 5.05 4.46 2.25 6.71 0.70 8.23
Roger Wehrli 196 5.54 4.52 2.35 6.88 1.31 7.67

Defensive backs are divided by whether they returned punts and kicks. Sanders, Woodson and Christiansen actually have higher offensive values than defensive because of their production in the return game.

Deion Sanders’ rating is for football only. Add in his baseball career and it’s 17.45, just behind Terrell Owens. If you ever wondered why he stuck to baseball for so long, consider that his 160-game average was 10.64 for football and 9.95 for baseball. In other words, he was slightly more valuable as an all-pro defensive back than he was as a journeyman outfielder.

Kickers Games Total Per 160 Sqr Root Sum Off Def
George Blanda 358 33.09 14.79 5.75 20.54 39.93 -10.66
Gary Anderson 373 28.38 12.17 5.33 17.50 26.84 -2.49
Morten Andersen 379 27.76 11.72 5.27 16.99 25.97 -2.53
Lou Groza 285 21.04 11.81 4.59 16.40 26.98 -3.35
Nick Lowery 268 19.54 11.67 4.42 16.09 25.64 -2.31
Jan Stenerud 282 18.02 10.22 4.24 14.47 24.67 -4.22

There’s a gaggle of kickers that have retired since I started — Jason Elam, Jason Hanson, John Carney, etc. — that should probably be here. I’ll get to them eventually. Vinatieri will retire one day, too.

Blanda also played quarterback, and Lou Groza was a part-time lineman. There’s more of those guys out there, as well — mediocre position players who also kicked. The special-teams lists are more for context than to be exhaustive.

Kick Returners Games Total Per 160 Sqr Root Sum Off Def
Bobby Mitchell 149 15.08 16.19 3.88 20.08 32.91 -0.52
Brian Mitchell 239 20.25 13.56 4.50 18.06 27.54 -0.43
Devin Hester 163 11.60 11.39 3.41 14.79 23.21 -0.44
Mel Gray 169 10.97 10.39 3.31 13.70 21.17 -0.40
Billy Johnson 143 8.64 9.67 2.94 12.61 19.77 -0.43

Half of Bobby Mitchell’s yards came as a receiver, a quarter as a running back and a quarter as a return man. I could put him with the wide receivers, where he’d slot in at No. 2, ahead of Jerry Rice, but that didn’t seem like the right place. I’m not sure he has a right place.

Hester has more return touchdowns than anyone, but he’s pretty far behind Brian Mitchell on yardage. The recent rule changes on kickoffs put the final nail in his stellar career. Dante Hall should be here. One more on the list …

Punters Games Total Per 160 Sqr Root Sum Off Def
Dave Jennings 212 15.76 11.89 3.97 15.86 0.05 23.75
Ray Guy 229 16.58 11.58 4.07 15.66 0.08 23.09
Sean Landeta 302 19.47 10.32 4.41 14.73 -0.02 20.65
Brad Maynard 249 15.85 10.18 3.98 14.17 0.14 20.22
Jeff Feagles 363 20.49 9.03 4.53 13.56 -0.01 18.07

Feagles, Landeta and Maynard are 1-2-3 in career punting yards, with Shane Lechler on the way. Guy and Jennings are in by reputation. Going by this tiny sample size, the value of punters has gone down since the 1970s. I would attribute that to fewer turnovers and more scoring; trading possession for yardage has slightly less value now than 40 years ago.

To do list:
Norm Van Brocklin
Fred Taylor
Ronde Barber
Charles Woodson
Michael Strahan
Jay Novacek
Brent Jones
Keith Jackson